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	<title>Comments on: The Challenges to Regenerate Church Membership</title>
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	<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/05/26/the-challenges-to-regenerate-church-membership/</link>
	<description>Trusting God :: Treasuring Christ :: Triumphing the Gospel</description>
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		<title>By: Timmy Brister</title>
		<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/05/26/the-challenges-to-regenerate-church-membership/#comment-36584</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timmy Brister]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 15:30:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timmybrister.wordpress.com/?p=2260#comment-36584</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Bill,

I think you are on to something.  Especially here in the West, there is the &quot;rugged individualism&quot; that cuts against the idea of community and corporate responsibility.  We want *our* religion, *our* faith, *our* spirituality and don&#039;t want to be bothered with whether it comports with what the church believes.  I think this is where Barna has sought to explain in his last two books (which are horrible BTW); he says that since the 21st century Christian is so individualistic, then we need to give up on the necessity of the local church altogether!  Go with the flow of culture . . .

Furthermore, there is the protest of authority.  We are raising generations of children who rarely see authority as protective and good; families are fractured, society is fractured, and leadership with power and authority are seen as corrupt and self-serving.  Bruised, beaten, and broken down, I think that the young generation would rather not have to deal with another authority figure but would be well content to be left to themselves.

I think the way to overcome the individuality and unwillingness to partake in community responsibility and accountability is the gospel and the love of Christ.  I think also, as you have stated, having the proper structures and government in the church is important as well.  Personally speaking, I have witnessed and experienced abuse of power and authority in the church--enough that at one point I said I would never go back to serving in the local church again.  God&#039;s grace kept me though, and I am grateful for the lessons I learned, though I would never want others to experience them.  

But ultimately, having been made in the image of God (of which we all are), there is innate within us a desire for community, for relationality that seeks to belong, to associate, and to commune.  The marring of sin and the devastating consequences of the Fall are continually manifested, and as you stated, the work of patient, persevering ministry is to daily bring the change that only the gospel of Jesus Christ can bring.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bill,</p>
<p>I think you are on to something.  Especially here in the West, there is the &#8220;rugged individualism&#8221; that cuts against the idea of community and corporate responsibility.  We want *our* religion, *our* faith, *our* spirituality and don&#8217;t want to be bothered with whether it comports with what the church believes.  I think this is where Barna has sought to explain in his last two books (which are horrible BTW); he says that since the 21st century Christian is so individualistic, then we need to give up on the necessity of the local church altogether!  Go with the flow of culture . . .</p>
<p>Furthermore, there is the protest of authority.  We are raising generations of children who rarely see authority as protective and good; families are fractured, society is fractured, and leadership with power and authority are seen as corrupt and self-serving.  Bruised, beaten, and broken down, I think that the young generation would rather not have to deal with another authority figure but would be well content to be left to themselves.</p>
<p>I think the way to overcome the individuality and unwillingness to partake in community responsibility and accountability is the gospel and the love of Christ.  I think also, as you have stated, having the proper structures and government in the church is important as well.  Personally speaking, I have witnessed and experienced abuse of power and authority in the church&#8211;enough that at one point I said I would never go back to serving in the local church again.  God&#8217;s grace kept me though, and I am grateful for the lessons I learned, though I would never want others to experience them.  </p>
<p>But ultimately, having been made in the image of God (of which we all are), there is innate within us a desire for community, for relationality that seeks to belong, to associate, and to commune.  The marring of sin and the devastating consequences of the Fall are continually manifested, and as you stated, the work of patient, persevering ministry is to daily bring the change that only the gospel of Jesus Christ can bring.</p>
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		<title>By: Marc</title>
		<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/05/26/the-challenges-to-regenerate-church-membership/#comment-36583</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Marc]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 15:19:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timmybrister.wordpress.com/?p=2260#comment-36583</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The five points above describe my former church like he had been there before!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The five points above describe my former church like he had been there before!</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Nettles</title>
		<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/05/26/the-challenges-to-regenerate-church-membership/#comment-36578</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Nettles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 04:14:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timmybrister.wordpress.com/?p=2260#comment-36578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Second sentence should read: &quot;I&#039;m not talking about being a &quot;lower-class&quot; of Christian...&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Second sentence should read: &#8220;I&#8217;m not talking about being a &#8220;lower-class&#8221; of Christian&#8230;&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bill Nettles</title>
		<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/05/26/the-challenges-to-regenerate-church-membership/#comment-36577</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bill Nettles]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 04:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timmybrister.wordpress.com/?p=2260#comment-36577</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Timmy,
Isn&#039;t another part of the problem with the common local church member in the USA a lack of a sense of accountability? I&#039;m not talking about a &quot;lower-class&quot; of Christian, but an unwillingness on the part of non-elders to be submitted to the oversight of an elder, along with the unwillingness of leaders/elders to take the responsibility of &quot;oversight of souls.&quot;

I know there are situations of abuse, but that, too, is a lack of submissiveness on the part of the abuser. It also speaks to the necessity of a plurality of elders, none of whom are autocratic, and have been proven trustworthy.

It&#039;s a long process that&#039;s not going to get fixed by a resolution, and won&#039;t change in less that a decade. But it IS time to start. I believe Ernie R., Tom A., Tom N., and others are good examples of patient Biblical practicality in bringing needed change. _By His Grace and For His Glory_ is over 25 years old.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Timmy,<br />
Isn&#8217;t another part of the problem with the common local church member in the USA a lack of a sense of accountability? I&#8217;m not talking about a &#8220;lower-class&#8221; of Christian, but an unwillingness on the part of non-elders to be submitted to the oversight of an elder, along with the unwillingness of leaders/elders to take the responsibility of &#8220;oversight of souls.&#8221;</p>
<p>I know there are situations of abuse, but that, too, is a lack of submissiveness on the part of the abuser. It also speaks to the necessity of a plurality of elders, none of whom are autocratic, and have been proven trustworthy.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a long process that&#8217;s not going to get fixed by a resolution, and won&#8217;t change in less that a decade. But it IS time to start. I believe Ernie R., Tom A., Tom N., and others are good examples of patient Biblical practicality in bringing needed change. _By His Grace and For His Glory_ is over 25 years old.</p>
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		<title>By: Timmy Brister</title>
		<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/05/26/the-challenges-to-regenerate-church-membership/#comment-36569</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timmy Brister]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 16:06:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timmybrister.wordpress.com/?p=2260#comment-36569</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin,

I think a resolution on perseverance in 09 is a great idea.  I think we need more exposition and clarity on the issue of eternal security that accounts for salvation in all of its tense (have been saved, am being saved, and will be saved).  Unfortunately, we have develop low expectations of Christians today and furthermore some have given up on the idea that a community of believers can discern if a person is regenerate.  When Jesus tells us that we will know them by their fruit, do we really take that seriously?  

Of course, some will think that a robust teaching on perseverance will lead one to believe that you are teaching a salvation by works (Piper can attest to this).  But that couldn&#039;t be further from the truth!  The God who works salvation and gives the gift of justification and righteousness also works in us to do what is pleasing to him--a working that is said to be with fear and trembling.  

I appreciate the comment, Kevin, and I hope that perhaps I would hear from you again in the future.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin,</p>
<p>I think a resolution on perseverance in 09 is a great idea.  I think we need more exposition and clarity on the issue of eternal security that accounts for salvation in all of its tense (have been saved, am being saved, and will be saved).  Unfortunately, we have develop low expectations of Christians today and furthermore some have given up on the idea that a community of believers can discern if a person is regenerate.  When Jesus tells us that we will know them by their fruit, do we really take that seriously?  </p>
<p>Of course, some will think that a robust teaching on perseverance will lead one to believe that you are teaching a salvation by works (Piper can attest to this).  But that couldn&#8217;t be further from the truth!  The God who works salvation and gives the gift of justification and righteousness also works in us to do what is pleasing to him&#8211;a working that is said to be with fear and trembling.  </p>
<p>I appreciate the comment, Kevin, and I hope that perhaps I would hear from you again in the future.</p>
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		<title>By: kevin</title>
		<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/05/26/the-challenges-to-regenerate-church-membership/#comment-36565</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kevin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 May 2008 04:51:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timmybrister.wordpress.com/?p=2260#comment-36565</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sorry to impose in this conversation, but maybe a resolution that is inspired by articles 4 and 5 of the BFM2000 needs to be drawn up for submission in 09, defining perseverance of the saints, reminding Southern Baptists that &quot;All true beleivers endure to the end. . . . will never fall away . . . but shall persevere to the end. . . . Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation . . . yet they shall be kept by the power of God through FAITH unto salvation.&quot;  
Russel, you bring to the light a good point in that so many Baptists have rested on once saved always saved without any biblical understanding of God still saving us as we live through faith by the power of the Holy Spirit.  They reason, though wrongly, that just as publicly committing to a church by way of joining is a one-time event, so too is salvatioin a one-time event.  They fail to realize that God is still saving us who believe and we WILL bear the fruit.  The Good Shepherd calls us, and we WILL heed His voice by and large.  Christ explicitly states that those who belong to Him, they will NOT follow a stranger, but will flee from him, &quot;for they do not know the voice of strangers&quot; (Jn 10:5).  Either Jesus is lying here, or the people who seem to have followed the voice of strangers are lying when they profess Christ to be their Shepherd yet their sheep pen seems to be the world and not the Kingdom of God.  
Just by talking with Baptists, there is a misunderstanding about eternal salvation.  Much attention is afforded to God&#039;s grace, though very little attention is afforded to the professing Christian&#039;s responsibility to live by faith, to walk by the Spirit, to bear good fruit, to hear and follow the Good Shepherd.  Though I am not a legalist when it comes to church attendance, (i.e. attending just to attend) I believe that if one is born of the Spirit, he cannot refrain from resting, serving, and worshiping in the household of God.  If he is of the Good Shepherd&#039;s flock, he will by and large graze with His sheep.    
I could see how, if the Regenerate Church Membership resolution is passed,  a resolution defining the doctrine of eternal salvation could serve to be both complementary to the RCM resolution and helpful to SBC&#039;ers as it would remind them of the biblical doctrine of the infamous &quot;once saved, aways saved.&quot;

Sorry for the rambling . . . I hope I made sense!
kevin
P.S. Timmy, though I have only commented once prior to this post, I read your blog regularly.  I appreciate what you report.  Keep up the faithful work!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry to impose in this conversation, but maybe a resolution that is inspired by articles 4 and 5 of the BFM2000 needs to be drawn up for submission in 09, defining perseverance of the saints, reminding Southern Baptists that &#8220;All true beleivers endure to the end. . . . will never fall away . . . but shall persevere to the end. . . . Believers may fall into sin through neglect and temptation . . . yet they shall be kept by the power of God through FAITH unto salvation.&#8221;<br />
Russel, you bring to the light a good point in that so many Baptists have rested on once saved always saved without any biblical understanding of God still saving us as we live through faith by the power of the Holy Spirit.  They reason, though wrongly, that just as publicly committing to a church by way of joining is a one-time event, so too is salvatioin a one-time event.  They fail to realize that God is still saving us who believe and we WILL bear the fruit.  The Good Shepherd calls us, and we WILL heed His voice by and large.  Christ explicitly states that those who belong to Him, they will NOT follow a stranger, but will flee from him, &#8220;for they do not know the voice of strangers&#8221; (Jn 10:5).  Either Jesus is lying here, or the people who seem to have followed the voice of strangers are lying when they profess Christ to be their Shepherd yet their sheep pen seems to be the world and not the Kingdom of God.<br />
Just by talking with Baptists, there is a misunderstanding about eternal salvation.  Much attention is afforded to God&#8217;s grace, though very little attention is afforded to the professing Christian&#8217;s responsibility to live by faith, to walk by the Spirit, to bear good fruit, to hear and follow the Good Shepherd.  Though I am not a legalist when it comes to church attendance, (i.e. attending just to attend) I believe that if one is born of the Spirit, he cannot refrain from resting, serving, and worshiping in the household of God.  If he is of the Good Shepherd&#8217;s flock, he will by and large graze with His sheep.<br />
I could see how, if the Regenerate Church Membership resolution is passed,  a resolution defining the doctrine of eternal salvation could serve to be both complementary to the RCM resolution and helpful to SBC&#8217;ers as it would remind them of the biblical doctrine of the infamous &#8220;once saved, aways saved.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sorry for the rambling . . . I hope I made sense!<br />
kevin<br />
P.S. Timmy, though I have only commented once prior to this post, I read your blog regularly.  I appreciate what you report.  Keep up the faithful work!</p>
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		<title>By: Timmy Brister</title>
		<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/05/26/the-challenges-to-regenerate-church-membership/#comment-36558</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Timmy Brister]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 00:20:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timmybrister.wordpress.com/?p=2260#comment-36558</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Russell,

I could not agree with you more regarding the distinction between eternal security understood today and the doctrine of perseverance of the saints as understood in years past.  You made an important point--one I appreciate your bringing to the fore.  The discussion of eternal security vs. perseverance of the saints is definitely one that needs to be had.  Thanks again.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russell,</p>
<p>I could not agree with you more regarding the distinction between eternal security understood today and the doctrine of perseverance of the saints as understood in years past.  You made an important point&#8211;one I appreciate your bringing to the fore.  The discussion of eternal security vs. perseverance of the saints is definitely one that needs to be had.  Thanks again.</p>
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		<title>By: Russell Langford</title>
		<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/05/26/the-challenges-to-regenerate-church-membership/#comment-36555</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Russell Langford]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 20:54:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timmybrister.wordpress.com/?p=2260#comment-36555</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Although it is mentioned ever so often in small degree, I believe the main (really main) issue connected with renewing an understanding of regenerate church membership is the misunderstanding of the difference between a typical understanding of eternal security and the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.  I&#039;m not sure why more SBC guys aren&#039;t talking about this, and am perplexed when certain people equate the popular understanding of eternal security with the traditional understanding of the perseverance (preservation) of the saints.  Until &quot;eternal security&quot; is properly understood the typical SBC church will not &quot;get&quot; church discipline and therefore they will not &quot;get&quot; the idea of maintaining a regenerate church.  SBC pastors and laymen are not comfortable &quot;judging&quot; another&#039;s regeneration, and thus are not comfortable with church discipline whether you call it a ministry of restoration or not.  For many there is not even a category of the professing believer who can prove to be actually a non-believer from the start (Matt. 7:21 - 23).  I hope I am wrong, but as a pastor I don&#039;t understand how this ecclesiological baptist reformation can take place unless SBC leaders and pastors not only call for &quot;renewal&quot; or &quot;repentance&quot; in lax membership accountability, but in an unbiblical understanding of &quot;once prayed, always saved.&quot;  I hope these resolutions and the ensuing conversations move in this direction.  If they do not, I&#039;m not sure how much will happen at the local church level. 
Russell Langford]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Although it is mentioned ever so often in small degree, I believe the main (really main) issue connected with renewing an understanding of regenerate church membership is the misunderstanding of the difference between a typical understanding of eternal security and the doctrine of perseverance of the saints.  I&#8217;m not sure why more SBC guys aren&#8217;t talking about this, and am perplexed when certain people equate the popular understanding of eternal security with the traditional understanding of the perseverance (preservation) of the saints.  Until &#8220;eternal security&#8221; is properly understood the typical SBC church will not &#8220;get&#8221; church discipline and therefore they will not &#8220;get&#8221; the idea of maintaining a regenerate church.  SBC pastors and laymen are not comfortable &#8220;judging&#8221; another&#8217;s regeneration, and thus are not comfortable with church discipline whether you call it a ministry of restoration or not.  For many there is not even a category of the professing believer who can prove to be actually a non-believer from the start (Matt. 7:21 &#8211; 23).  I hope I am wrong, but as a pastor I don&#8217;t understand how this ecclesiological baptist reformation can take place unless SBC leaders and pastors not only call for &#8220;renewal&#8221; or &#8220;repentance&#8221; in lax membership accountability, but in an unbiblical understanding of &#8220;once prayed, always saved.&#8221;  I hope these resolutions and the ensuing conversations move in this direction.  If they do not, I&#8217;m not sure how much will happen at the local church level.<br />
Russell Langford</p>
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