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	<title>Comments on: What Shall We Say Then? &#8211; Discussion 3</title>
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	<description>Trusting God :: Treasuring Christ :: Triumphing the Gospel</description>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/01/28/what-shall-we-say-then-discussion-3/#comment-33982</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[David]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 14:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[It does to me, D.L. - but I&#039;m not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing!

The second question for me is a good one. The fact is that in speaking with the unconverted, if they were to say to me &quot;You Christians! Salvation is nothing more than a &quot;Get out of Hell free&quot; card!&quot;, then I would wholeheartedly agree. It IS a get out of Hell free card. In effect, Christ takes our &#039;Admit One&#039; stamped with Hell as the destination and makes it His own - replacing the destination with Heaven. That is exactly the &#039;bad news - good news&#039; of the Gospel.

But if it is a believer, a convert, a Christian who sees salvation as a licence to licentious living - or the unconverted that thinks that this salvation is like Roman Catholic confession but with the added convenience of being always open and portable, then we need to shake up that assumption.

1 John 3:4-10 really brings us to the heart of the matter. I think the ESV really shows the true sense of the greek poiew verbs which are, as you doubtless know, in the present tense, when they translate this as &quot;keeps on sinning&quot; or &quot;practicing righteousness.&quot;

A pianist, to hone his craft, will spend many, many hours in the sound booth just practicing. Joshua Bell, a gifted violinist, can practice up to three hours every day. You would not watch him at work and say &quot;What a fine carpenter. Look how well he manipulates the wood of that violin. See how fine his sawing motion is with the bow.&quot; No! You would see and say that he was a very gifted musician.

So too, John tells us, that if as Christians we practice lawlessness, we do not know Christ. We cannot make the inclination of our days run contrary to righteousness and expect that people will see us and think us righteous. Or that God will see us as truly having been seized by Christ.

So there is no easy believism. Whilst God is gracious beyond our sinfullness (pg 13) - there is a firm sense that we are saved UNTO good works (no, Virginia, not BY good works). By their fruit shall we know those grafted into the stem of Christ. We know that to truly take Christ is not to be let off the hook - but to take the hook and embrace it - and accept sourges whilst we are suspending from it. If you want ease in this life - look elsewhere. (and this is the putresence of the Joyce Myers and Billy Hinns and Joel Osteens of this world. That they call their shuckster feelgoodism Christianity. No wonder people think that Jesus is a cheap panacea, cosmic life insurance. No wonder we have to answer questions on easy believism. I pray that they would be truly converted or truly silenced.)

&quot;You are what you eat&quot; is an old saying. It is also a british TV show about flabby, obese folk who are confronted with their habits. At one point in the show, their weekly food consumption is recorded - and then laid out on a table. The hapless porky is brought in and confronted with the reality of what they consume in a week. Aside from the obvious attempts to deal with the shock by covering it with &quot;Ooo - that looks nice&quot; comments - the almost universal response is one of disgust; shock; disbelief at the true nature of what is laid out visibly before them - all in a fatty, sugary, alcohol rinsed pile of putrifaction. The scene shifts from pasty-faced english folk, aghast at the reality of their diet, to a table laden with greens, fruits, vegetables and healthsome goodness. The person is led back in and shown their new weekly intake and there is much hilarity as they come to grips with all sorts of pulses and whatnot they could not even identify - let alone find in a supermarket and bring home to cook.

As Christians, &#039;you are what you do.&#039; If a pastor or a brother or a spouse could take your choices for a week and lay them out on a table to show you the contents of your life - would it be a disgusting, congealed morass of goop - with the occasional pea or apple thrown in - or would it be a table of fruit, perhaps with the odd pie, sweety or hamburger messing up the whole. Would we look at the first table and say &quot;Ah - this person who makes a habit of filling themselves with horrible things must know Christ?&quot; Or would we say that they would not know Him?

John makes it clear - you are what you eat. You are what you practice to be. Eating a donut does not rob your salvation. Eating only vegetables does not grant it. But the &#039;meals&#039; we consume, the &#039;menu&#039; we produce is a clear indication of the &#039;diet&#039; we are truly following - despite anything we say with our mouths about how healthy we are eating.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It does to me, D.L. &#8211; but I&#8217;m not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing!</p>
<p>The second question for me is a good one. The fact is that in speaking with the unconverted, if they were to say to me &#8220;You Christians! Salvation is nothing more than a &#8220;Get out of Hell free&#8221; card!&#8221;, then I would wholeheartedly agree. It IS a get out of Hell free card. In effect, Christ takes our &#8216;Admit One&#8217; stamped with Hell as the destination and makes it His own &#8211; replacing the destination with Heaven. That is exactly the &#8216;bad news &#8211; good news&#8217; of the Gospel.</p>
<p>But if it is a believer, a convert, a Christian who sees salvation as a licence to licentious living &#8211; or the unconverted that thinks that this salvation is like Roman Catholic confession but with the added convenience of being always open and portable, then we need to shake up that assumption.</p>
<p>1 John 3:4-10 really brings us to the heart of the matter. I think the ESV really shows the true sense of the greek poiew verbs which are, as you doubtless know, in the present tense, when they translate this as &#8220;keeps on sinning&#8221; or &#8220;practicing righteousness.&#8221;</p>
<p>A pianist, to hone his craft, will spend many, many hours in the sound booth just practicing. Joshua Bell, a gifted violinist, can practice up to three hours every day. You would not watch him at work and say &#8220;What a fine carpenter. Look how well he manipulates the wood of that violin. See how fine his sawing motion is with the bow.&#8221; No! You would see and say that he was a very gifted musician.</p>
<p>So too, John tells us, that if as Christians we practice lawlessness, we do not know Christ. We cannot make the inclination of our days run contrary to righteousness and expect that people will see us and think us righteous. Or that God will see us as truly having been seized by Christ.</p>
<p>So there is no easy believism. Whilst God is gracious beyond our sinfullness (pg 13) &#8211; there is a firm sense that we are saved UNTO good works (no, Virginia, not BY good works). By their fruit shall we know those grafted into the stem of Christ. We know that to truly take Christ is not to be let off the hook &#8211; but to take the hook and embrace it &#8211; and accept sourges whilst we are suspending from it. If you want ease in this life &#8211; look elsewhere. (and this is the putresence of the Joyce Myers and Billy Hinns and Joel Osteens of this world. That they call their shuckster feelgoodism Christianity. No wonder people think that Jesus is a cheap panacea, cosmic life insurance. No wonder we have to answer questions on easy believism. I pray that they would be truly converted or truly silenced.)</p>
<p>&#8220;You are what you eat&#8221; is an old saying. It is also a british TV show about flabby, obese folk who are confronted with their habits. At one point in the show, their weekly food consumption is recorded &#8211; and then laid out on a table. The hapless porky is brought in and confronted with the reality of what they consume in a week. Aside from the obvious attempts to deal with the shock by covering it with &#8220;Ooo &#8211; that looks nice&#8221; comments &#8211; the almost universal response is one of disgust; shock; disbelief at the true nature of what is laid out visibly before them &#8211; all in a fatty, sugary, alcohol rinsed pile of putrifaction. The scene shifts from pasty-faced english folk, aghast at the reality of their diet, to a table laden with greens, fruits, vegetables and healthsome goodness. The person is led back in and shown their new weekly intake and there is much hilarity as they come to grips with all sorts of pulses and whatnot they could not even identify &#8211; let alone find in a supermarket and bring home to cook.</p>
<p>As Christians, &#8216;you are what you do.&#8217; If a pastor or a brother or a spouse could take your choices for a week and lay them out on a table to show you the contents of your life &#8211; would it be a disgusting, congealed morass of goop &#8211; with the occasional pea or apple thrown in &#8211; or would it be a table of fruit, perhaps with the odd pie, sweety or hamburger messing up the whole. Would we look at the first table and say &#8220;Ah &#8211; this person who makes a habit of filling themselves with horrible things must know Christ?&#8221; Or would we say that they would not know Him?</p>
<p>John makes it clear &#8211; you are what you eat. You are what you practice to be. Eating a donut does not rob your salvation. Eating only vegetables does not grant it. But the &#8216;meals&#8217; we consume, the &#8216;menu&#8217; we produce is a clear indication of the &#8216;diet&#8217; we are truly following &#8211; despite anything we say with our mouths about how healthy we are eating.</p>
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		<title>By: D.L. Kane</title>
		<link>http://timmybrister.com/2008/01/28/what-shall-we-say-then-discussion-3/#comment-33973</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[D.L. Kane]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2008 04:09:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://timmybrister.wordpress.com/?p=1956#comment-33973</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is such a deep and all encompassing topic.  Thank you, Timmy, for taking the time to so beautifully present it to us:  For me, I guess I don’t struggle with focusing on whether I am a bruised reed or a smoking flax, although I have great sympathy and compassion for those that are genuinely saved who never experience the joy, peace, assurance and freedom, that comes from truly understanding God’s grace and mercy.

I suppose I have never focused much on my own salvation.  I have simply trusted God and put my soul into His almighty and sovereign hands.  When I first read what Paul said in Romans 9:1-3, “I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers” It made a huge impact on me.  It made me realize that it is not about me or my salvation.

It made me ask myself why I follow Christ.  Why am I obedient?  Why do I desire to grow in the grace and knowledge of my Lord and Savior?  Is it to “feel” better about my position in Christ?  Is it to assure myself that I am in Christ?  I suppose I came to the realization that it’s not about me!  It’s about Him.  It’s about desiring so deeply that my short pathetic life will somehow bring Him glory; that somehow everyone I encounter, everyone who knows that I am a follower of Christ, will see His reality and His power, and His beauty, in and through me.

I know this is a little off topic, and my heart breaks for those who struggle with sin and with doubt; and I am thankful for Sibbes ministry to those believers.  But, for me, my motivation for experiencing increased grace in my life is not born out of a desire to gain fuller assurance of my position in Christ; but to better represent His reality and His Glory to a lost world.

I once said to someone who seemed to have received Christ based on a watered down gospel, (fire insurance)   “I would rather me a genuine “born-again” believer who doubts their salvation, then an unregenerate sinner with false assurance”.  I still feel that way.

I hope this makes sense!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is such a deep and all encompassing topic.  Thank you, Timmy, for taking the time to so beautifully present it to us:  For me, I guess I don’t struggle with focusing on whether I am a bruised reed or a smoking flax, although I have great sympathy and compassion for those that are genuinely saved who never experience the joy, peace, assurance and freedom, that comes from truly understanding God’s grace and mercy.</p>
<p>I suppose I have never focused much on my own salvation.  I have simply trusted God and put my soul into His almighty and sovereign hands.  When I first read what Paul said in Romans 9:1-3, “I am speaking the truth in Christ—I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit— 2 that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brothers” It made a huge impact on me.  It made me realize that it is not about me or my salvation.</p>
<p>It made me ask myself why I follow Christ.  Why am I obedient?  Why do I desire to grow in the grace and knowledge of my Lord and Savior?  Is it to “feel” better about my position in Christ?  Is it to assure myself that I am in Christ?  I suppose I came to the realization that it’s not about me!  It’s about Him.  It’s about desiring so deeply that my short pathetic life will somehow bring Him glory; that somehow everyone I encounter, everyone who knows that I am a follower of Christ, will see His reality and His power, and His beauty, in and through me.</p>
<p>I know this is a little off topic, and my heart breaks for those who struggle with sin and with doubt; and I am thankful for Sibbes ministry to those believers.  But, for me, my motivation for experiencing increased grace in my life is not born out of a desire to gain fuller assurance of my position in Christ; but to better represent His reality and His Glory to a lost world.</p>
<p>I once said to someone who seemed to have received Christ based on a watered down gospel, (fire insurance)   “I would rather me a genuine “born-again” believer who doubts their salvation, then an unregenerate sinner with false assurance”.  I still feel that way.</p>
<p>I hope this makes sense!</p>
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