Thanks for your participation. I hope you will find P&P worth your time. God bless you and have a wonderful Lord’s Day tomorrow.

Timmy

A date with your wife! I can top that. My wife and I just got back from our son’s wedding. I hope you had a nice time. We certainly did. I would enjoy reading what you think about the Ecclesia subject, but we probably should do it off Brother Timmy’s weblog, as that might be considered hijacking the comment string. You can email me at cantemus@gmail.com, and in the mean time I will bone up on Carroll and Gill.

Brother Brister,

Good job. Keep up the good work. It has gotten to the point in my busy spring that you and Finn are the only two weblogs that I regularly read these days.

Blessings to all,

Wayne Hatcher

There is a spot where spirits blend,
Where friend holds fellowship with friend,
Tho’ sundered far; by faith they meet
Around the common mercy-seat.

I just got in from a date with my wife. Because it’s late and I want to watch my NASCAR race I will talk to you in lengths about the issue of the Universal/Visible church. I truly believe in a elect body that is so large that no one can number but this is an issue that many of the ” Old Calvinistic Baptists” disagreed with each other on. Please read BH Carroll’s book on the Church which is called Ecclesia. The whole book is a study on the Greek word. I will follow up either tomorrow or when I’m done studying for my sermon for Sunday. My church confession is the 1689 which does support a universal church view but I agree with the 1644 on the church. Something to think about: Does the Universal Church have : Officers, Ordinances, Discipline, and where does this assembly gather weekly? This is just something I want you to ask yourself. I fully believe in an elect people who will be in Christ. Also, please read Dr. John Gill on the Nature of A Gospel Church in his body of divinity. It’s crucial to study this word( Church) by notcing the study that Carroll did. In Carroll’s book you will see the following: The Etymology of the Greek Word Ecclesia, Usage of the Greek word Ecclesia, Its Usage in the Classical Greek, Its Usage in the Septuagint, Its usage in the Apocrypha, and its usage in the NT.

You are so right to speak of the Holy Spirit in regards to baptism. One of the things Bobby Welch said in his most recent article (“Handwriting on the Wall”) was,

“We must be realistic–we are not waiting on God, but God is waiting on us.”

What?! We have tied up the hands of Almighty God? This line of thinking is the same which promulgates the decisional regeneration where God is a beggar, pleading and begging for us to exercise our sovereign will and make the decisive choice to follow Him.

Here’s the deal: Those who have pushed the “million more” campaign have a lot of explaining to do when so much money was spent on a bus tour and traveling only to see two years of decline in baptisms. So we play the blame game. Blame blogging pastors. Blame the last decade for not seed sowing. Blame this. Blame that. If blame should be accrued to anyone, should it not be God since he is the Author and Finisher of our faith? He did not (or was not able to) meet our expectations.

Furthermore, you are correct about the difference in a form of eternal security which labels anyone who has “prayed the prayer” or been baptized the idea of “once saved, always saved” without any necessary evidence of regeneration. We are taught by our evangelistic practices to say, “Welcome to the family of God” to someone who has prayed the prayer when we have no idea if that person has truly been born again. There is a world of difference in a biblical view of perseverance of the saints than the “once saved, always saved” view of eternal security, and a large part of that has to do with a view of God’s sovereign work in salvation and in sanctification, principally in which he works by His Holy Spirit to save, sanctify, and perfect His people.

Brother Morgan,
The foundation (rock) of the church is the confession that Peter gave in Matthew 16: “You are the Christ, the son of the living God.” Therefore the church (universal) is made up of all who sincerely and genuinely name the name of Christ, those who proclaim “Jesus is Lord!” The gospel, simply put, is the person and work of Jesus Christ, and all who put their trust in Him are a part of the bride of Christ, the church. I agree with much of what you say, and I cannot for the life of me figure how Paedobaptists come to their conclusions, and I confirm they will have much to answer for, but to say that true believers in Christ are not a part of His body, the Church, appears to me to be a category outside of Christianity. To be in Christ means to be a part of the Church. Now, whether or not I would invite a visiting Presbyterian to the Lord’s table; probably not. But then, I am not a pastor, so I am not faced with that situation.

Thanks brother. I look forward to conversing with you about this and other SBC matters in the future.

I’m sorry I didn’t answer your first question the other day because I just saw it. I’m not usually one to say go read somebody and thats my position but in this case it will be a better use of my time to have you read Dr. John Gill( Body of Divinity) A Body of Pratical Divinity Book 2 Of The Nature Of A Gospel Church, The Seat of Public Worship pgs 852-859 . I’m a visible church ” Guy” . Yes, there are Elect ones but I do not hold to a Universal Church view. If you read these short pages then we can talk. If you don’t have Gill let me know and I will let you know where you can find it on line or I will buy you the book. Also, I would reccomend BH Caroll Ecclesia- The Church for a through study on the church and how the word is used. A few thoughts:

1. Any religious assembly that preaches a false gospel and / or practices a false baptism cannot be recognized as a true NT Church of gospel order. All such assemblies who fundamentally, characteristically and permanently preach a false gospel come under the indictment of Gal. 1:6-9.

2. Salvation and a profession of faith are undeniably prerequisite to baptism. Salvation is not by means of baptism. True believing disciples are the only proper subjects for baptism. Immersion is the only proper mode of baptism.

3. Scriptural baptism is absolutely necessary to church constitution,organization and existence, so much so, that where there is no Scriptural baptism there is NO Scriptural church. No baptism, no church. Acts 2( Notice the order: They were not added to the church until baptism and we only recognize immersion as baptism. Matthew 28:18-20 and I could go on. The Padeobaptist have so much explaining to do on Acts 2( Subject and Mode).

4. there is an intimate and inevitable connection between the true doctrine of salvation and the proper administration of baptism. Scriptural baptism is the representation of and the identification with the Scriptural plan of Salvation.

5. According to the commands of Christ, the practice of the early churches of the NT, the Epistles of Paul, and the Confessions of Faith of all evangelical religious denominations… baptism as an ordinance, was deliverd to the NT church to be administered by it according to Christ’s commands until He returns.

6. All the aspects of baptism, (the mode, subject, purpose ) are irrevocably fixed and prescribed by Christ’s example and commands. These are to remain permanent and unchanged.
( Six Points taken from the Baptist Standard Bearer Body of Divinity Intro).
Please read Southern Presbyterian RL Dabney Lectures in Systematic Theology lecture 64 pp 774-775 for the same conclusion NO Baptism means no Church. Some will cry out what about Sproul, Lloyd Jones, Edwards. My answer is what about Acts 2, Matthew 28, Acts 8 etc…. .

Please read The Collected Writings of JH Thornwell Vol 3 pp 277- 413 Banner of Truth Edition 1974. Presbyterian baptism is founded upon Catholic baptism ! The church that I pastor is a 1689 Confessional church and our own confession supports a Universal Church but I perfer the 1644 on this issue. We are baptizing two former Presbyterians Sunday. Once they have been baptized and have become members then we will serve the Lord’s Supper to them based Acts 2: 40- 47. My email is scottmorgan33@yahoo.com if you want to engage in brotherly talks. Thanks for your interest.